tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post9131435473572857426..comments2024-02-21T08:52:55.878+00:00Comments on Your Freedom and Ours: And they're offHelenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13799545178433498944noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-9388997968688591812011-03-22T23:12:55.000+00:002011-03-22T23:12:55.000+00:00Edward, did you also ask those who _don't_ adv...Edward, did you also ask those who _don't_ advocate demanding a referendum exactly what their plan is to force Westminister to take Britain out of the EU? I think the answer to that would present us with the most useful comparison by which to discern the better of the two strategic approaches. By all means rubbish such ideas as demanding a referendum and refocussing our efforts in that context to ensuring that the 'out' campaign would win it, if there is a better strategy we should be following. Over to you, I believe!MikeHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-84212062159970402472011-03-22T23:03:39.000+00:002011-03-22T23:03:39.000+00:00Helen, I did not suggest you do not know those inv...Helen, I did not suggest you do not know those involved. I'm sure you do. If you read back, you will see that I did suggest, however, that you have condemned recent developments having not spoken to them about what they're up to with this new and apparently quite significant organisation. Am I correct? Perhaps this time you could answer that in nice simple terms for we hard-of-understanding? <br /><br />As a result I'm suggesting that you might not be getting the full picture, yet you already leap to condemn this new initiative. I'm not sure that's all that helpful and can't really see how that's doing justice to the situation. <br /><br />If you look at the features of the first referendum campaign and ask what that is likely to achieve, I expect, like me, you will see the reasons for the second. By all accounts it appears the second has achieved more in one week than the first one has done in nearly a year, which to me is an apparent potency to be welcomed.<br /><br />Finally, who says no-one is going to be 'shifting the debate' as well as pushing for a referendum? Isn't this your massive assumption, having made no enquiries? As far as I understand it, participating groups with which we are all familiar will also be focussing on this. You surely don't imagine you're the only person with the foresight to consider what might happen if the referendum campaign is successful? <br /><br />I feel it's a real pity to be discouraging people on such an ill-considered basis and, being a regular follower of your blog, would have expected better especially from you.MikeHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-38101776007750964552011-03-17T12:41:12.000+00:002011-03-17T12:41:12.000+00:00Damian is right that frustration drives much of th...Damian is right that frustration drives much of the demand for a referendum. I heard Jon Gaunt at a Bruges Group meeting getting quite emotional. He Said that he wanted a referendum so that he could have his say. He added that he did not mind what the result was! It even raised a cheer!<br /><br />Since August I have been asking various campaigners and advocates for an "in/out" referendum what their plans are to win it, if they get their wish. The answer is zilch, nada, nix, nothing. The answers I have received are "Public opinion is moving our way" and "That is an entirely separate question". <br /><br />None of the referendum campaigners bothered to consult the Irish experience of referenda but the other side will certainly have done so. Tony Coughlan of the Irish National Platform is of the opinion that an "out" majority vote is unobtainable without the support of at least one of the main parties, preferably the party in government at the time.<br /><br />This campaign is not only going to soak up a great deal of money (whose?) and effort, it could well end up as an invitation to join the Charge of the Light Brigade.Edward Spaltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-1340645430576179272011-03-17T02:17:21.000+00:002011-03-17T02:17:21.000+00:00Surely, much support for unintentionally divisive ...Surely, much support for unintentionally divisive displacement activity comes from frustration. Every new idea is the next big thing that will make everyone see the light…There is often an expectation that because “we are right”, it must be very straightforward to make everyone else see the light and for things to change within months. And of course this does not happen, for a variety of reasons. So, on to the next idea without putting effort into the real slog, and then people peel away in frustration, usually criticizing individuals rather than systems and their own expectations. There is a painfully inadequate understanding of how media works (sadly, rather vital), and also the rules around elections/campaigns and coverage: much of our side is still naïve about the role of democracy and fairness in coverage (ie it doesn’t exist, but many seem to think it does even when they moan about the BBC or the newspapers). Your point about 1975 sums it up: my own memory is that we were faced with “Wedgie Benn” and Enoch on the No side (and headlines in those newspapers now saying Britain should leave the EU about the UK becoming ‘the next East Germany’) and a number of more steady and easy-on-the-eye-and-nerve people on the Yes side. Never mind what I think now about the two camps - then it felt a lot different because of the coverage. I watched a similar horrible shift among many friends in Ireland over Lisbon 2…“well they’re extremists on the No side…good old [fill in the name of an Irish Ken Clarke] says we’ll keep our sovereignty…isolated…etc”. Shedloads of cash on the Yes side, little on the No. Money is a key. It won’t guarantee anything but it really helps. And of course, in the right hands…Damian Hockneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-47086935655694442422011-03-16T20:20:04.000+00:002011-03-16T20:20:04.000+00:00Dear MikeH,
What makes you think I do not know the...Dear MikeH,<br />What makes you think I do not know the organizers of both campaigns? Furthermore, both the Boss and I have explained why we think they are both ill-thought out campaigns. Exactly, what is the point of another campaign of people pledging that they will vote only for politicians who will offer an in/out referendum? What will it achieve? And if we do get that referendum, our side will lose because we have wasted our time on campaigns of that kind instead of shifting the debate. Now, would you like me to say that again in even simpler terms?Helennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-36095938716008664862011-03-16T15:51:27.000+00:002011-03-16T15:51:27.000+00:00But are these two calls for action from PP and EU...But are these two calls for action from PP and EURC just stalking horses. It would be a welcome addition to have Helen and the good Doctor really opening up with the information that is still not in the public view. More power to you elbow Helen.Derek Buxtonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-26403104804332742092011-03-16T14:26:06.000+00:002011-03-16T14:26:06.000+00:00How do you know that the People's Pledge is an...How do you know that the People's Pledge is an "ill-thought-out campaign" .. have you spoken to the organisers? I would seem unreasonable to condemn it as such without establishing their full thinking. <br /><br />It seems one key difference between the two 'corners' is that the PP is neutral on the EU but the EURC is a 'same old' anti-EU campaign that hasn't got us that far thus far. Anti-EU activists should welcome the People's Pledge and, in response, redouble their efforts to ensure that if and when a referendum comes the 'out' lobby is in a position to win it.<br /><br />May I suggest that that would be the constructive response to the latest developments.MikeHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-41606973252777465502011-03-15T21:54:30.000+00:002011-03-15T21:54:30.000+00:00Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should d...Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should direct your energies on this blog to getting the UK out of the EU. It is time to go, Good God Almighty, it is time to go. Never has so much been so clear. It is time to go.A readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-82328132637720353502011-03-15T21:54:10.000+00:002011-03-15T21:54:10.000+00:00Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should d...Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should direct your energies on this blog to getting the UK out of the EU. It is time to go, Good God Almighty, it is time to go. Never has so much been so clear. It is time to go.A readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-35840896115903832102011-03-15T21:53:53.000+00:002011-03-15T21:53:53.000+00:00Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should d...Good blog Helen. From this day forth you should direct your energies on this blog to getting the UK out of the EU. It is time to go, Good God Almighty, it is time to go. Never has so much been so clear. It is time to go.A readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4057487038565855826.post-68882123054875801462011-03-15T19:24:41.000+00:002011-03-15T19:24:41.000+00:00Correct me if I am wrong.There's been a lot of...Correct me if I am wrong.There's been a lot of talk about the 1975 referendum,I know there was a strange mix on the 'NO' platform but,the question was; Do you agree with the Governments renegotiation of the Terms of the Common Market Treaty. Really there was only one way the vote could go and that was a 'yes'. It was a loaded question,so the next referendum that we have and,I think we will, sooner or later,must be a direct question,IN or OUT/YES or NO.dennisboaternoreply@blogger.com